Life Conversations with a Twist
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Life Conversations with a Twist
Empowering Nonprofits, Empowering Communities: How Capacity Building Unlocks Opportunities for All with Mariya Yurukova
S3 Ep16 Episode Shownotes:
“Most people don't go to school thinking they will end up working in the nonprofit space. So there is really a talent pipeline for nonprofit professionals that can feed the talent needs of the nonprofit sector which is ever-growing and ever-expanding.” —Mariya Yurukova
Nonprofits are the unsung heroes, quietly transforming communities and empowering those in need. Yet, the challenges they face in securing talent and funding can be daunting. How can we bridge the gap between deserving causes and sustainable support?
Mariya Yurukova is the CEO of Charity Search Group, a talent recruitment firm dedicated to the nonprofit sector. With over 20 years of experience, she has made it her mission to connect organizations with the right leaders to drive meaningful impact.
Tune in as Mariya shares her insights on navigating nonprofit fundraising, leadership transitions, and the power of providing opportunities to those who need them most.
Connect with Heather:
Episode Highlights:
01:39 Career in the Nonprofit Sector
09:44 Charity Search Group’s Services and Impact
11:24 Challenges and Strategies in Nonprofit Fundraising
20:24 Fertility and Surrogacy
44:15 The Emotional and Practical Aspects of Surrogacy
51:39 The Role of Nonprofits in Providing Opportunities
Connect with Mariya:
Mariya Yurukova is the CEO of Charity Search Group, a talent recruitment firm that works exclusively with nonprofits. With over 20 years of experience in the nonprofit sector, Mariya has dedicated her career to helping organizations find the right talent to drive their mission and impact.
In addition to her work at Charity Search Group, Mariya is also a passionate advocate for fertility awareness and support. She has navigated her journey with fertility challenges and surrogacy and is open to sharing her experiences to help others going through similar situations.
Mariya splits her time between Bethesda, Maryland, and Niagara, Canada, where she lives with her husband and young son. In her free time, she enjoys playing tennis, which she credits as a way to maintain her sanity and well-being.
Heather Nelson: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this week's Life Conversations With a Twist.
I have Mariya today. Mariya and I just met two weeks ago. This is the power of connections. I was thinking about how I was going to introduce you today, and one of the things that I always talk about is the power connections and how the world gives you these opportunities to connect with amazing women, which is why I started this podcast. And one of my past guests actually introduced you and I because of the work that you do in the nonprofit world and board. And then as soon as we chatted, we found all these other ways to connect. So I was like, yes, please be on my podcast. So thank you for being here.
Mariya Yurukova: Oh, absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Heather Nelson: So give our listeners a little bit about your day. Who are you now? Where do you live? A little bit about your family life, and then we'll dive into your story.
Mariya Yurukova: My name is Mariya Yurukova, and I'm the CEO of a talent recruitment firm that works exclusively with nonprofits called Charity Search Group. And besides that, I do a whole bunch of other things, but I spent my entire career in the nonprofit space. And so the world I live in is all about nonprofit work, and sort of something that not many people get exposed to. But on its own, it's amazing how many lives are touched by various different nonprofits that do all kinds of work that we encounter on a day in, day out basis. And I think I'm fortunate enough that I get to work with many of them, and help them bring about impact to the communities that they serve. I'm a mom of one nine month old, nine and a half month old. He just learned how to stand up, so that sort of is the highlight of my week, if you wish. And also, the most challenging time ever because he is on the moon. Yep. And I split my time between Bethesda, Maryland, and Niagara, Canada. So I am originally from Bulgaria, which is in Eastern Europe. I spent about 20 years in Canada where I met my husband who happened to also be American. And so we go back and forth quite a bit because we have family in both places.
Heather Nelson: I love that. Where are you currently at right now?
Mariya Yurukova: Currently, I'm in Niagara. And then tomorrow, I'm traveling for the great Thanksgiving movie.
Heather Nelson: I saw some memes, and I just had to share it. It was something like a mom saying, why do our kids get a whole week off for one dinner on Thursday? But I like, it gives us the opportunity to travel and take time off. So I'm here for it.
Mariya Yurukova: We can if we can. I think that. I think that it's good. My stress level is probably up about 20% where it normally is, because there's just such a mad rush towards the end of the year. And one of the things I love about nonprofits is that many of them would shut down between December 25th and January so that they don't really bring people in for three days in that week in between. And so it feels like it's only three working days that they would be off for. But in my world, for some reason, this is creating a whole bunch of stress of, oh, my God, we don't have enough time to do all these things. And everybody wants stuff to start in January. I was a little bit stressed when I was like, literally, we spit ourselves into a tizzy just to get three days off.
Heather Nelson: It's like vacation, right? Everyone's so excited and needed a vacation. And then you're gone for a week, and you come back, and it's just even busier. And you're like, why did I even take this vacation? Or even leading into it?
Mariya Yurukova: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Heather Nelson: So obviously, you've started this. This business is a nonprofit, lots of them. When you and I met, we talked about different avenues, and I can't wait to dive in more. But tell us, how did you even get into this space? What was your first job, and what led your path there?
Mariya Yurukova: There's so much to this. So the thing about the nonprofit space, which sort of explains why people like me exist to begin with, is that most people don't go to school thinking they will end up working in the nonprofit space, right? Nobody really says, oh, I want to be a professional fundraiser and help people fund scholarships. I don't think there's a single university student or high school student thinking that right now. So that informs the fact that there isn't really a talent pipeline for nonprofit professionals that can feed the talent needs of the nonprofit sector, which is ever growing and ever expanding. So I fell into it just like everybody else. Like you go on one path, and you think this is what you're going to do, and then you get exposed to a great organization that does amazing work, and there's a light switch goes on, and you're like, this is what I want to do because it fills my cup. And that's how I started. And things were going great. I had this structured career path that I was on. Okay, now I'm going to be a manager, and I'm going to be a director, and then I'll be an assistant vice president. I had this whole plan. And then early in my 30's, I had to go to the doctor to renew my birth control prescription, which seemed like it was literally one of those appointments that you just have to go and be like, okay, just give me the paper, and then I'm done.
I happened to ask the question of the doctor who happened to be not only someone who can write that prescription, but also happened to be a fertility specialist. And so I was like, oh, by the way, I'm in my early 30s. I think I'm going to have children soon, but I don't know, like, what's my runway? How long do I have? And he was like, well, there's this one test that we can run that will tell you what your ovarian reserve is going to be. It's not usually covered by insurance, but it's like 75 bucks. And I was like, yeah, okay. I would like to know. And so I did the blood work for the test, and then the results. I think we're going to come in a week later. I was living life and doing all those kinds of things. I was renewing my birth control prescription, and I went back to get the results. the doctor is like, remember how you asked me what is your runway? And he was like, two months. But I'm on birth control. And he's like, well, you have diminished ovarian reserve. Your ovaries are about a decade older in terms of the way they perform than what your actual age is. And so you will run out of genetic material, so to speak, sooner. And so if you plan on having children, you better do it yesterday. When you get news like this, especially when it's not something that you like, or actively working on or planning for in a serious way, it really was like one of those, I think it took me a while to be like, so what does this mean? And I think I was lucky that I was with a partner who was very supportive. I was like, well, we're just going to roll with it and figure out what's going to happen. So one thing led to another, and then I ended up in a whole bunch of IVF treatment cycles which were not covered by my employer.
And as many of you or listeners probably know, they can be quite pricey. And so I was like, I need something to supplement my income so that I can continue to do the work that I do, but I can also pay all these medical bills. And I remembered that I had worked with a recruiter in the nonprofit space for a job that I did not end up getting about a decade before that. And so I called up the recruiter. I was like, hey, by the way, I know the nonprofit space really well. I'm good at hiring. I manage a lot of people. Like, do you need some help? And he's like, funny you should ask. And so one thing led to another, and then I ended up with this side gig where I was doing recruitment on the side of my full time job in order to pay for my fertility treatment. And I happen to really like it. And I thought that this gave me an opportunity to impact so many more organizations than just the one I was working for, which I think really got me excited and sort of understanding because you can get access to talent. But I think I feel like for, especially for growing organizations, that's the biggest hurdle. If you can figure out how to hire better, then you can have a bigger impact. And when you are impacting organizations that have a profound impact on families and communities, I think getting them better access to talent is really fulfilling. And so then the pandemic happened. Nobody was hiring for anything. And so what does one do when there's no work?
Heather Nelson: You start a company, which is what most people did during this time.
Mariya Yurukova: Right, right. And here we are five years later. I think Charity Search Group is turning five in 2025. We've had over 135 placements in the nonprofit space, and we've worked with more than 60 organizations. I'm very lucky, and I think very proud that many of them are returning clients for whom we've staffed the entire teams across the country in 20 states plus. We continue to work with many of our early on clients. And along the way, I think we've picked up many others and we now are a team of 10 that we collaborate on this great work. So that's the twist. That's how we ended up here. And here we are.
Heather Nelson: I love that. I actually would say that a lot of my listeners are in the nonprofit sector. Can you talk just a little bit about what your group does and what your team does specifically to help support? Is it because there's kind of two arms? There's the hiring for the actual nonprofit team, but then also you do some board development as well.
Mariya Yurukova: Yeah. All of these things are connected. So the reason why we do things like board training is so that boards understand what their role is in things like fundraising, governance and hiring of a CEO, for example. because if I know that a board has had the capacity building and professional development in that space, then they tend to be easier to work with, and we have to do less of a heavy lift when it comes to educating them on, this is how hiring works. These are the questions you should not ask in an interview. And this is what the talent pool looks like. And no, most nonprofit professionals don't just do this for pennies because they don't have mortgages to pay and whatnot. So those kinds of conversations. I think when we have them on the training side, it makes for a better hiring experience and it sets the higher up for success. The essence of what we do is really help boards and nonprofits go through a leadership transition. So when a CEO is about to leave or there is a vacancy, or the organization is growing and they have many senior leadership roles, we come in, and we not only find the talent to fill them, but we also ask a whole bunch of questions, and we take the leaders on a journey of understanding. Where are you today? What are you trying to accomplish? And where are you trying to go? What kind of leader is going to take to do that? And so those kinds of questions and that partnership, I think is really important and sometimes understate it.
So occasionally, we would go into an organization that has had a long term executive director, let's say for 19 years, or sometimes they're the founder, look at the organization and create a path of, okay, so if and when the time comes when this leader is about to move on to their next thing, what is this going to do to your organization? Like, Are your donors going to leave? Do you need a new board? Do you know everything there is to know about how you're funded and what your programming looks like? Do you have someone internally that can be an heir apparent that would come in and step into the role? And so we go through that succession planning process with a lot of organizations independent of whether they eventually need to hire that person or not, just to get them through the process of thinking of all the moving parts. Even something simple as, if your CEO resigns tomorrow, who needs to know? When? And how? We would map out that process. So that's sort of the work that we do. I've also done a lot of consulting with nonprofits when it comes to fundraising and how to amplify and really elevate your fundraising efforts where you're getting a better return on effort. Because a lot of fundraising is so labor intensive, which burns out staff and doesn't always bring out the results that you want. And so it's really difficult to get me off the track of not going into an organization. Be like, so this is how you're raising your money. Here's five other ways to do it. But that is also something that I enjoy greatly.
Heather Nelson: That was something that I took away from our conversation because I do support some nonprofits. And where we're at in Sonoma county, there's so many nonprofits. I was really intrigued and wanted to know your experience on fundraising. Everybody's like, oh, you have to do this big gala, you have to do this big event. But something that I took away from you was like, sometimes, that's not necessarily what that nonprofit needs. Or there's other things that you can do that are more profitable for them instead of doing this big, expensive event. Especially in Sonoma county, it's so expensive to hold an event. Can you talk a little bit through some of the clients that you've worked with that have done things other than a big gala fundraiser?
Mariya Yurukova: there's so many, and there is a place and a time for fundraising events. I think lots of our clients are very successful in doing those, And raising millions of dollars in events. But then there's also things, like COVID 19 happens, and you can't have a Gallup with a thousand people and then what do you do? So a couple of other things that I've seen that have been equally or even more successful for some of our clients. One of them has really been, instead of going through this large event which is very, as you know, effort intensive and expensive to create and all of that, and tends to paralyze a whole bunch of other work of the organization while the event is going on because everybody's so focused, because it has a deadline, and it's public so you want to show your best foot forward in that stuff. But salon events, on the other hand, are something that many organizations are able to activate their board members on that I think are even more effective than a gala. And so the difference is that when you have a gallery, there's this huge, oh, we need to sell 300 tickets or whatever the number is. And then everybody tries to do that. But there isn't really a ton of strategy, or rhyme, or reason so long as you have the warm bodies in the room.
But what's helpful and what works really well with salon events, for example, is if you have a board member or someone who's really passionate about the organization, who's hosting 15, 20 people in their home. And so it's not really a large event. It still can be elevated, it still can be very high profile, but much smaller in terms of, much more intimate, I should say. But because it's much more intimate, you get to ask more questions, you get to meet with the program staff or whoever, and then you get activated as a potential donor a lot faster and a lot easier instead of a big event where the follow up is always where things fall through, I would say. And so that's one way to still think about events, but do it a little bit differently. But the majority of my clients really think about, how do you activate major donors? How do you have access? And what do you think about folks who are most likely already your supporters? You just don't always know their capacity for larger giving. That's one area that's really important. A lot of our clients do great work when it comes to online. Sometimes it could even be events, challenges, that kind of stuff. They do great there. So in fundraising, there's the short term money that you can get right away, and then there's the longer game with things like grants, for example. And so there, you have to keep up. They have long cycles.
So sometimes, you submit something you haven't heard back from nine months. But when you do, it could be very substantial to the organization. So you have to balance out what you're trying to do today versus what you're trying to do for three years from now. And ideally, you have the capacity to be able to do a little bit of both. But I think that the wildest thing I heard not that long ago was from someone who had gotten the idea, and I love this story, who was traveling a lot for work and they were like, every time I'm lining up for check in and all those things, everybody's on their phones playing games. I'm like, how do we get access to these people? And so apparently, there was a way that like the Candy Crush type of games as well. There's a way that you can do ads for nonprofits while people are playing these games, I think. And just tell me that they managed to do that asking for monthly donors and they got a tremendous amount of response. Now keep in mind, it was a large organization so they had some bigger budget to work with. But ultimately, they were able to find donors who were on their phone playing games, I think.
Heather Nelson: Wow.
Mariya Yurukova: The moral of the story is, sometimes, you have to go where the people who are interested in the work that you do are. Wherever that is, right?
Heather Nelson: I love that, and I love the online fundraising because then it reaches so many more people than just an event that is local. I feel like there's a lot of donor fatigue right now. We're all trying to buy the same money from the same person or the same organization, but there's other ways to kind of expand your network and grab other money elsewhere. I love that. One last thing I want to talk about before, and then I want to come back to this, your whole fertility. I think that is very intriguing to me too. You talked about the board, like board members could host these events. But from what I understand, and what I hear a lot of is that some boards have been like, they've had the same board members on there. How do you re-engage and grow a board and get their buy-in, still get them to participate or say thanks for your time, time to move on so we can get some fresh blood. What is your perspective on all that?
Mariya Yurukova: Let me see if I remember all of them, but let's start there. So typically when you've had a lot of long term board members that are not doing anything and that happens sometimes. It's very helpful to bring someone like me that says, something like it is industry best practice for boards to have terms. And those terms usually are for two years plus a two year renewal. And so from today we will put everyone on a term. And two years from now, those terms will expire. Then it starts to shift. Okay, so there's an end to this. This is not a given that I'm always going to be on this board. So that's one way of doing it. Ideally, you would do that before you start recruiting board members because board jobs are just like any other job. They should have a job description. There should be a term, there should be terms of engagement in which fundraising is one of those things you might want to put in there. But if you didn't do that and you're dealing with a whole bunch of legacy issues, then bringing in a consultant to make some of those recommendations is always helpful.
Expanding the board so that if you have a board of six, seven and five of them are not doing much for you, well, have a board of 12. And then gradually move people off as those terms that you just introduced start rotating. That's something to consider. And then the other piece of this is, which I've seen done successfully is you look at board members on why they wanted to be on the board in the first place. And then sometimes, you realize that their passion is actually not to be in governance and to read audits and all of that. Maybe they just want to help people, so maybe transitioning them to a volunteer role may be something to consider. So we might be able to find something of a different place for them. But typically when I've worked with boards, like on the staff side, I would meet with board members on an annual basis and be like, so how are things going? Is this still fulfilling for you? Do you have the time for it? And when you start asking these questions, sometimes people are like, this has been great. I feel like I want to do something else next year. And so it's helpful to also give them the opportunity for a graceful out, if you wish.
Heather Nelson: I love that. Thank you because I know there's some nonprofits that I'd be listening to too. Take that advice.
Mariya Yurukova: Do you want to talk about how we activate it for the purposes of fundraising?
Heather Nelson: Sure.
Mariya Yurukova: Okay, so real quick. The thing about fundraising that everybody needs to remember is that it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable even for me. I have done it for 20 years, and I've raised millions of dollars, and I've sat in front of people and asked them for millions. And it's even more uncomfortable when you think about it in the very simplistic way of, I need to ask my friends for money. Nobody likes to do that. But that is also not what fundraising is. And so I think it's really important that if you're going to activate board members for the purposes of fundraising, you need to break this down into tasks that they're comfortable with. This is how a lot of galas and golf tournaments end up being born, because that's the least uncomfortable thing people are comfortable with. I could totally invite 20 people to go out for dinner with me. However, here's a couple of other things that you might want to do. And so usually when I activate a board member for the purposes of fundraising, the low threat type of work is, we've gotten gifts from these 10 people for the first time ever. Do you mind making these 10 calls and thanking them? That's something that most people don't feel uncomfortable doing, but it gives them an opportunity to talk about the organization. It fills the cup as to why people are excited about it. And then you just never know. It may inspire them to also introduce the cost to other people. So that's sort of the low end of what you'd ask them to do.
The second level of all of this is asking them to introduce you or whoever is the staff person to people in their network that might want to hear about the work that they're doing. So it kind of goes like this. Hey, we are doing awesome work in suicide prevention, do you know anybody in your network that is passionate about this kind of work that may be interested in the work that we do? And it could be that because you had this new research report that came out. It could be because you don't have this new great program that you're about to launch, whatever the case is. But when you put it that way, it doesn't always mean what you're looking for, the last thing you want to do is be like, do you know any rich people that we can go ask for money? Nobody ever says yes to that, right? Third piece of this is if you do have board members who really want to ask their network for funding, for example, it's really important that you support them and make sure that they have everything they need in order to do that. I remember working with one board member who had access to a lot of wealthy people.
So the issue there wasn't that she didn't know anybody. The issue was that she was really uncomfortable asking them for funds. And I was like, okay, well, don't ask me for funds. Introduce them to me and be like, hey, I really think that you would appreciate the work that I'm doing with this organization I've been involved with. I want to introduce you to the executive director. If you have some time to spend with her, that would be great. And that's all. Sometimes, that's all it took. So you have to gauge where people's comfort is, and slowly move them up the ladder of what they're comfortable with. But it never works with the blame game of, you must do this. That doesn't really work. And then the other piece to this, I think that is really important is that you have to set the stage with how you recruit board members. And so putting something in their invitation to join the board, for example, that says, it's really important for us that we authentically represent the organization to all of our funders and show that our board is 100% behind our efforts. And we are really firm and working towards 100% board participation and philanthropic support. And so here's how different ways you can do this. A personally significant gift to Organization X. Are you comfortable making Organization X one of your top three charities that you support? That's another way. Are you comfortable committing to raising $5,000 on behalf of X charity? If they don't have the capacity themselves, but they want to do it from hosting dinners or whatnot, that's their choice. And so when you put it that way in those documents, people will self-select that that's not their cup of tea, and I think that's okay.
Heather Nelson: I love that. The board that I was on, that's what they did. They were like, you can either give us your network and do things in different ways. And I like that because as somebody who wouldn't be able to donate like a million dollars a year, but I know enough people to help grow or be able to help fundraise. I love that reminder. Thank you for that. I love this conversation, and I think that it's so good to have it, especially because there's so many nonprofits out there, and then everybody wants to start a nonprofit.
Mariya Yurukova: It is hard work, it is not easy. But I'm also happy offline if anyone's listening. And it's like, oh, I need to work through this. Whatever your board thing is, I'm happy to jump on a call and troubleshoot this, or give you an idea of what kind of services you can take advantage of. That will do some of that for you.
Heather Nelson: I love that. Thank you.
Mariya Yurukova: To the executive director.
Heather Nelson: They always listen to an outsider.
Mariya Yurukova: Yeah.
Heather Nelson: Yeah, I love that. So you started this amazing business during the pandemic, but it kind of became more of a side hustle because you needed passive income or you needed more income. So the doctor tells you that you have two months. Were you with your husband at the time?
Mariya Yurukova: Yes, he wasn't my husband yet.
Heather Nelson: He wasn't. Okay.
Mariya Yurukova: We had literally just moved in like two weeks earlier.
Heather Nelson: And you're like, guess what?
Mariya Yurukova: Pretty much, yeah.
Heather Nelson: We need to speed this process up. What was your journey like? So they tell you this news, I couldn't even imagine. You were saying, you just go in to get birth control. This was not a conversation you were even hoping to have, but here you are. What were the next steps for you?
Mariya Yurukova: Well, so I think at that time, and that was quite some time ago. I think what the doctor said was, okay, you have three months to figure yourself out. If you're not pregnant in three months, you're just going to have to start fertility treatments. And I can't emphasize enough how shocking that is to hear when you're not even trying to get pregnant.
Heather Nelson: Yeah.
Mariya Yurukova: Put it this way, I was like, okay, well, here's the list of treatments, and here's all the things you need to do. And this is the timeline, this is what genetics is going to look like. And now, I can tell you so many things. But at the time, the headlights did not begin to describe this. And so anyway, so that was the case. And so I found out, I think it was the week before my birthday, which is the end of September. And I think our first IVF cycle was in February. And at that point, it was unsuccessful. And then one thing led to another, and then we had to do an IVF cycle the following fall. So the thing about fertility treatments, which you may or may not know from experience, they move very slowly. So sometimes, there's many, many reasons as to why things take years, right? Anyway, so long story short, we kept on trying different things. We changed doctors a few times. I had an IVF cycle that was successful in terms of me getting pregnant and following fall. So a year later, see how things go, I did end up having a miscarriage. And at that time, I think that experience was the part where I was like, I need to find a way to do work that will support my wellbeing so that I can actually go through this. And then the pandemic happened and whatnot. But nonetheless, that was the impetus for me to also change careers so that I would actually be a little bit more in control of my own faith. Because the one thing about fertility treatments that I think is super stressful.
I remember interviewing people while I was in the waiting room in an IVF clinic because you do things like at 7:00, 8:00 am in the morning, and you have to go four times a week, and you can't schedule around it. It's not like your life is not your life at that point. You just go by whatever the doctor says the next appointment needs to be. And so that work life balance is very challenging during those times. Anyway, so one thing led to another. We then changed doctors. And then in the middle of the pandemic, our new doctor was like, well, the only way we can solve your issue is not for you to just keep trying. Because if you ever wanted to have more than one child, you're going to run out of time anytime now. So how about we just do IVF cycles back to back to harvest whatever genetic materials you have, and then we'll worry about getting you pregnant. I was like, yeah, okay. And so during the pandemic while everyone was masking up and everyone was at home, I did six IVF cycles in eight months. I look back and I was like, I think this was a little bit insane, but it happened anyways. Long story short, we tried to get pregnant with a couple of embryo transfers that didn't take, there was another miscarriage somewhere in there.
Heather Nelson: These were your own eggs at this point, because the IVF process is basically creating eggs that they can extract to wait until you want to be pregnant.
Mariya Yurukova: So there's two kinds of IVF right? So there's the harvesting of the eggs, which is the genetic material that a woman has, and then those eggs are usually combined with a genetic material from a man. In this case, my now husband. And then they create embryos which are frozen on the fifth day for the most part. And then when someone is trying to get pregnant, those embryos are the ones that are being transferred. And so the idea with us was that, well, if we have as many embryos as we can, we can put them on ice and then just transfer and hope that the first one takes, which it didn't. The second one didn't take either. And so we were down to two embryos at the time. This is now three, four years later. Because there was some additional backup cycles that were being done to harvest more eggs. And so at that point, there were two embryos left that we could transfer. And our doctor was like, listen, your best chance of achieving a pregnancy, given the fact that we've not been able to keep you pregnant, we haven't been able to get you pregnant, the best thing to do for you to do is to perhaps use a surrogate. And so here it goes. Talk about twists. I was looking at the question that you had sent me in the name of your podcast and I was like, okay, that was the first twist, but I have six other twists.
Heather Nelson: This is why people come on my podcast more than once, right?
Mariya Yurukova: So the second twist was this whole thing of, okay, so now you're going to have to work with another woman to carry your child. And I was like, okay.
Heather Nelson: And I'm just curious. Anyone listening to this knows that I was a surrogate so this is why I'm super intrigued to have you on, because I'm on the other side of it. I've been very blessed being able to get pregnant on my own. I've never had to go through that. So that's why I ask these questions because I'm like, I don't even know what that process is like for you guys. I remember when I started this whole surrogacy idea, it's still very foreign for a lot of people. They're like, wait, what? I'm sure that's something that you never thought of. And the only person that I could relate to was like a Kardashian who had a surrogate or whatever. So I'm curious to know, in your head where you're like, what is it that I'm about to do?
Mariya Yurukova: The thing about me is that I like to do a lot of research. And so slowly you start getting exposed and think about things in life in general. When you open yourself up to certain things, all of a sudden, you see them everywhere. And I think that goes in terms of positive manifesting. The perfect parking spot at the mall for those of us who are going to be doing some Black Friday shopping also goes in this space. I remember going to the bank, talking to a teller and being like, I need you to increase my daily transaction limit on my credit card because I have to pay bills at the fertility clinic that are more than $5,000, and my daily transaction limit doesn't allow me to do that even if there's money in the card and whatnot. She was like, fertility treatment, eh? And I was like, yes. And she was like, you know, I have a seven year old. He was the 7th transfer of my 7th embryo. Six didn't take. And then we both cried. You can just imagine the craziness that sometimes happens with these situations. But who knew that this is how this was going to come about. All that's to say is that once you start thinking about surrogacy, then all of a sudden, lots of people that you may or may not know tend to validate that and have had similar experiences and whatnot. And so did I know that that existed?
Heather Nelson: Probably.
Mariya Yurukova: Obviously at that point, I also knew a lot about how IVF worked, but I didn't know how long and hard it would be to find a surrogate. I didn't understand what that whole process would entail, which is incredibly difficult for many reasons. And so think of it this way. If we leave the biology aside for a second, you have two women. Most at a time, it doesn't even have to be. Because if you think about gay couples, that's a different set of circumstances. But for the most part, you have two women who are coming. Like you and I, for example, we're coming from the exact opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to fertility. You have been deemed to be good as a surrogate because you've had easy, breezy pregnancies, and I have been deemed to need a surrogate because I've had nothing but trouble in that space. And so when we go through that entire process, say for you, everything is normal and things are going to go okay. And for me, everything is normative, things are not going to go okay. And when we start going through this process together, it's incredibly difficult because intended parents are perpetually waiting for the other shoe to drop mode. And so as you go through particularly early stages of pregnancy and all of that, we have to relive our trauma for all of that. And surrogates sometimes are like, well, I've never had a miscarriage, or I've only ever had good outcomes with pregnancy. Everything's fine. So that in and of itself. I think this process is interesting. On the other hand, imagine if you are not in good shape and you were trying to go to the gym with someone who's a professional bodybuilder, probably not the best example I've come up with, but that's sort of what it feels like. The other piece of this is you have to create a very intense and intimate relationship with someone you just met in a very short period of time, and I build trust. That's incredibly difficult under the best of circumstances, by the way. Fundraising is no different than that. You still have to build trust.
Heather Nelson: You have to build relationships and trust.
Mariya Yurukova: Yep. It's not as hard. And so how do you do? You have to think through the mechanics of, how do you build trust? What parts are you willing to let go? What parts do you want to hold ? Go through these scenarios in your head. And the thing about hypotheticals is that you can't be overly committed to what you think you're going to do in a certain situation. Because until you've been in it, you have no idea. So for example, when our surrogate was about to give birth, we had talked about what this process was going to look like, and we were going to be in the room and all of that. And I told him, I was like, listen, you're telling me this now because you're not in pain. You don't have contractions, and you haven't been in labor for seven hours. When the time comes, just figure out a hand signal with your husband if we need to be out of that room because you can't deal with that many people around you, that will be okay. You can change your mind even as things are happening because the hypothetical of what this is going to look like when we're all calm and this is not happening may change when you're actually in the situation.
I think that there's that part that was incredibly difficult, but it's also a beautiful journey if you open yourself up to it. You gain more because not only now I have this incredible baby that I get to spend so much time, and there's just that extra level of enjoyment that you get of all the little things that, so Halloween was not that long ago and I was telling our circles like this is also one of those holidays that's incredibly difficult for people when they are trying to conceive and don't have any children. And because of you, I now notice that I don't have to live the trauma of surviving another Halloween without a child. And so I think I get daily and constant reminders of how grateful I am that we are on the other end of that journey. But it's also wild. And I'm very, very grateful that most of my clients don't know this, although some do because I got baby gifts from them. I talk about the trust and the partnership you build with people. But when you work with small businesses, you never know what the drive behind some of them and what you're actually supporting. And in my case, if it weren't for some of the clients that we've had, we wouldn't be able to be in a position where we're going to have Michael. And so I'm very grateful that all of that worked out.
Heather Nelson: I love that. I have so many thoughts because when you brought this up to me, I don't even know how that conversation came up. And I'm like, oh, I was a surrogate. And you're like, wait, what? I've been dying to have someone on the other side of this experience to be able to share these. Because my intended mother, she would never have. She was very private, and I couldn't post photos and I respected that. But I would love someday for her to come on and have this conversation as me and her. But because people don't understand, they're like, oh, you're just going to have a baby and it's fine. And the process of surrogacy is insane. You were saying it literally takes so much time. A year and a half. by the time you have to apply and it's literally like a 90 page document of everything. Your lifestyle, how you feel about certain things. You have to go to psychological valuations, you have to go through medical evaluations. My husband had to like it, it is not an easy process. And then you get to the contract. Once you get through all of that, then you go to contract. And then there's all those conversations that no one wants to have before this experience of like, what if there's a miscarriage? What if the parents decide that they want to abort, for whatever reason. You literally have to figure out together what that's going to look like. And again, especially not having gone through it, you're like, I don't even know how I would feel about that.
Mariya Yurukova: You don't really know how you're going to feel about that until you're in the moment. Theoretically, you may think that you feel this one way and then things happen. It's very different. It's a give and take, so you can't like it. All of it lives in the gray. Like the black and white stuff is one thing. But the other thing that I remember even now, every once in a while, I would meet people and the first question they would ask is like, well, were you at all worried at some point that they weren't going to give you the baby?
Heather Nelson: I'm like, no.
Mariya Yurukova: In the beginning, I would speak with lawyers who worked with surrogates and they were like, the biggest worry of surrogates is that parents weren't going to take the baby. And so it's interesting how everybody worries about the same thing, but from very different angles, apparently.
Heather Nelson: I think the biggest question I got was, is it going to be hard to let go of the baby? Because you do create this bond. That was probably the number one question for me. And I was always like, no, because literally, when you go through this process, because it's such a process, it's like a year process. This testing, the contract. When the transfer is done, it's very transparent that this is not your baby. There's something about it that never hit me that way.
Mariya Yurukova: Well, I think you have to take into consideration that you have, whether it's parents, a couple or whatever, you also get to walk with them and get to know them along the process. And so it's not that simple. It's not your baby, I would agree. All you have to do is look at the faces of some of those parents, especially if you've ever seen pictures of what intended parents look like in the delivery room. I think it makes it super clear. A picture does tell a thousand words. I can never do it justice. I would never be able to describe the feelings you get when you see your child for the first time. And I think for surrogates, that's part of it too, that you have to be in the headspace where you realize that you're going to impact someone's life profoundly. And I'm like, well, how am I supposed to do birthday gifts, Christmas gifts or whatever. You are the reason why I have a child, and now I have to buy you a gift for your birthday. How is that even going to be equal at all? No amount of gifting is ever going to be equal. That's how I feel about it.
But I also understand that I've been on a couple of support groups with other intended mothers. I remember one particular one that we were on. Everybody was sitting there going, why are we all so Taipei? We literally all had, I wouldn't say similar career trajectories, but they were all replicas of each other, very intense and scheduled people. And it was interesting that we all had that whole thing about how life has thrown us a curveball where the one thing that we thought we could control is actually the thing we had no control over. Now we've given it all up, and now we're trying to control just about everything else. I was joking the other night. I was like, I am the world's most research expert on formulas. I could tell you every ingredient that's in formula because I've done months of research on that. Why? Because I wasn't going to be able to breastfeed myself. And so you try to find different things to control which are not the person carrying your child, and that's super difficult because that's the first place you go.
Heather Nelson: I'm assuming you still have a relationship with your surrogate?
Mariya Yurukova: Yes, we do. I think we're friendly. We're at the point where I would share milestone pictures of the baby and that kind of stuff. But I think when we were towards the end of the process, there was a question around how much contact I want to have. I think the scale was a 10, and we're at like 4 or 5. Both indicated this kind of thing. At this point, I think I look at it as more organic, whatever feels right. I don't feel the pressure to communicate or not to communicate well.
Heather Nelson: And that's the thing too is those are the things you discuss, what is the relationship look like after? And some surrogates don't want to have a relationship after for whatever reason. It's hard or whatnot. I was open to it. I get photos once in a while. I get merry Christmas, happy birthday, happy Mother's Day. She sends me photos, I check in. She's in Florida. She was a single mom too. And that I think was on my end. Something that was super hard is she wasn't local so I didn't get to see her very often. And we talked all the time. I'd video her in on appointments, but I always had to remind myself like she would ask for photos of my tummy, or she wanted certain updates. I had to remind myself that this is her process too. She will never get to experience this. I was open to whatever it is that she wanted to be a part of. And some might be more hands on, and some might be less. But for me, this is your journey too. And whatever it is that you need from me, I'm here to support that.
Mariya Yurukova: I remember us talking about baby showers at some point. I was firm that there shall be no such thing until we get the baby. No planning will happen. I literally had this whole plan about how I was just going to leave a whole bunch of money with my parents and buy everything that needs to be bought, but I don't want to know about it until the baby's here. And then we ended up having three baby showers. You have to have a level of flexibility with these things, which I think is really important in parenting too because you just never know what kind of child you have. You may sleep through the night or he may not. So there's a little bit of flexibility that needs to happen somewhere in there too.
Heather Nelson: That's so true. Was your surrogate local?
Mariya Yurukova: No. I actually think that's not entirely a bad thing. What goes through my mind this entire time? I always have this whole process of, if I were in your shoes, what would I want? And I think that's the first step of the process. But because there was also a distance, that also created space. Because when you're pregnant, you're a little bit cranky, and it's not an easy thing physically to go through. But you also have your own family and have to live life. I think if you're local, I wouldn't want to put the pressure on someone who's already pregnant to not have to socialize and do all these things with me in person because we're there. I think if you're not local to each other, then I think that releases the pressure a little bit, or at least you have to do it virtually, which is not as big of a lift. So there's that. I think it made the few times that we went out, the ultrasound appointments and all that. That is much more special.
Heather Nelson: Right.
Mariya Yurukova: So I think there's pros and cons to that.
Heather Nelson: Yeah, I love that. I'm glad that we're having this conversation because I actually get more people reaching out to me. Not because they want to be a surrogate, but because they're in your shoes, they're at a point where they might need to have a surrogate. And so they want, obviously, my feedback, which I'm absolutely willing to give. But I said, really, you should find somebody who's gone through the process on the other end and get their feedback because it's such a different experience from my point of view. I'm glad that we're having this conversation because probably every couple months, I get someone that reaches out, and I'm absolutely happy to share. I always refer to my fertility clinic there in San Diego. Fantastic. Still in a group chats with them. And I think that was huge to our journey. I feel like it's becoming more and more of a thing now. And so if there's any way I can support other people, I'm here for it.
Mariya Yurukova: I hope that technology has gotten to the point where this is a possibility for many more people now than it probably was 20 and 30 years ago. I think that it's becoming more public now, which has its pluses and minuses. What I want people to know is that none of us wake up with the idea that we're going to use a surrogate to have a child. This is a process that took seven years and a lot of thinking, and I'm probably still processing for another five years as to what that meant and all of that. I don't want to trivialize it because it's not like the cards and sheets. Definitely not like that at all. It's a very emotionally charged process, but I definitely don't want to trivialize it at all because it is something that you have to be very thoughtful to get into, both as an intended parent and as a surrogate. It's not a quick, easy way to outsource the process.
Heather Nelson: Because you don't want to be pregnant, because you don't want to get fat. I hear some of those stories and I'm just like, I don't know. I understand that there's probably a lot of reasons why surrogacy is not out publicly. The few movies or the few documentaries that they do have shines such a negative light on surrogacy. That the surrogate hooks up with the dad of the attendant. This is not what it's like. And that's what bothers me the most. Can they just put a movie together that really shows a positive experience out of it?
Mariya Yurukova: I don't know about a movie, but something that was, when you open yourself up to some of these things, you just never know. So I remember sitting on the couch one Friday night watching a Netflix special by a comedian by the name of Michelle Buteau. I don't know if you're familiar with her, you don't have to be familiar with her, but she has a show on Netflix and a couple of specials. And she does her comedy thing and da, da, da, da, da. And she talks about how she has boy, girl, twins and whatnot. And there was a point as I'm watching this, she's like, oh, and by the way, she just made this one joke, which I will tell. It doesn't necessarily mean I condone it, but I'm going to do it. She was like, I had a baby through surrogacy. And so when our surrogate was giving birth, I was at the bar drinking a glass of wine. That was the joke that she had. But the point I was trying to make is that, here's this woman who's trying to normalize this process. I was watching this going, I had no idea where this was gonna go. It's on a Netflix special. I think most people who create, first off, when has television ever given us anything that has been a super realistic portrayal of anything?
Heather Nelson: Very true.
Mariya Yurukova: Why would we think that they'll do it justice this time? I think it's always the case with many things that the people with the loudest voices are not necessarily the most balanced. The stories you hear and all of that, it's usually the extremes. no newspaper is going to care about my story. That's the middle of the road. A little bit of give and take here and there. That's not interesting. And so we have to be careful with these things. You only hear about the extremes, I think, on both sides. I think it's a beautiful thing. Again, it's a very thoughtful and very involved process, and it's not something that's done lightly, I would say. I've never met anyone who's gone through this process and been very (inaudible) about the whole thing. I've spoken to a lot of intended parents. I haven't met that many surrogates for various reasons.
Heather Nelson: I love that. Thank you for having that conversation. Because when we connected, I was like, yes, can we please talk about it? Because I think from both perspectives, I think it's something worth sharing. Is there anything we didn't talk about that you would like to share with the listeners today?
Mariya Yurukova: Oh, boy.
Heather Nelson: I mean, we covered a lot.
Mariya Yurukova: There's many things. All of these things have one thing in common. We're all humans, and we all have our unique stories. I think everybody deserves to get out of life on what you put into it. And that's not always an equation that doesn't always work out. And I think that's also where a lot of nonprofit work comes in. One thing I didn't tell you about in terms of hobbies, there was a thing in your intro, I'm a huge tennis fan. I play a lot of tennis. But my favorite tennis player happened to retire last week. His name is Rafael. And so in his speech, he said something along the lines of, I just want to be remembered as a good person from a small village that got a lot of opportunities in life because he was good at tennis. And it's not because I worked hard, because lots of people work hard and don't get the opportunities that I got. And I think that's really true about many things in life. And that's also where nonprofits live, giving opportunities for people who may work really hard that may deserve the same opportunities as many of us get. But for whatever reason, the equation doesn't work out for them. And it's very fulfilling when you get to the position where you get to help these organizations scale and grow, and give more people opportunities. And I think that surrogacy is no different in that you get to give. Many women have deep desires to be pregnant. Trust me, it's not for lack of trying, and it's not for lack of effort, and it's not for lack of knowledge and all of that. And sometimes, the equation just doesn't work out, and people like you make that equation work out for some of us. And I think that's really important.
Heather Nelson: I love that. What a great way to end. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad we connected. I'm like, I just love my little group of women who have been on the show because I feel like it's like forever friendships, and we bond on so many levels. I'm glad that you came into my network. I'm glad you were on the show, and I can't wait to continue to see your journey.
Mariya Yurukova: And if you want to talk to nonprofits, Find me on LinkedIn. Happy to chat. And if you are an intended parent out there trying to figure out how to navigate this and you just want to get it off your chest, I'm happy to listen to it.
Heather Nelson: I love it. Thank you so much, Mariya, for being here.