Life Conversations with a Twist
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Life Conversations with a Twist
Dating a Narcissist with Allyn Amerongen
S3 Ep2 Episode Shownotes:
“You can go when you want to go. You deserve something more than that. You're worth more than that.” —Allyn Amerongen
Narcissistic partners can be the ultimate masters of manipulation— one minute they'll shower you with love and the next they'll tear you down. They’ll slowly chip away at your confidence until you're questioning everything. But you know what? You're stronger than their games!
Our guest this week, Allyn Amerongen, has been through the wringer with a narcissistic ex. But instead of letting that experience break her, she's using it to lift up other women.
Buckle up as Allyn spills the tea on the red flags of narcissistic abuse, the incredible strength it takes to break free, how subtle manipulation can chip away at your self-worth, the importance of having a strong support system, the healing power of sharing your story, and the unbreakable strength you'll discover on the other side of trauma.
Connect with Heather:
Episode Highlights:
02:11 How Trauma Impacts Relationships
08:42 The Narcissist’s Game of Deception
15:55 Recognizing Red Flags
20:26 The Real Person Behind the Mask
28:22 Subtle Abuse, Love Bombs, and Coercion
32:33 Characteristics of a Narcissist
39:01 It’s Not Something You Can Fix
43:33 Facing the Devastating Aftermath and The Road to Healing
47:30 Change Starts with You
52:25 You Deserve More
Heather Nelson: Welcome everyone to this week's Life Conversations With a Twist. I am really excited for this conversation. I always start my podcast out by saying how I met my guests. And actually, Allyn and I met in a podcasting group. She is also a professor. We all put on what our podcasts are about, and I instantly connected with her because this conversation has come up multiple times in my life in the last couple months. And so I'm really excited to have you on and hear your story, and promote your new podcast that just released last week.
Allyn Amerongen: Thank you so much. Yes, I know. I am excited and very happy to be here. I think that it was a natural connection. And so I'm grateful to be here with you today having this conversation.
Heather Nelson: I love our little podcast community. I think we all are in it just trying to figure it out and support each other. And so I think a lot of my guests have come from that. I just love being connected to everyone, especially all over the world. Where are you at? I forget to even ask you where you live?
Allyn Amerongen: I am in Oregon right now. So not too far from you. But yeah, it is kind of forgotten in this online world. Especially working online and digital, people are all over, and it's nice to have that sense of community. But then you also kind of lose that connection sometimes, where are you going? Where are you? Stuff like that. So yeah, not too far from you.
Heather Nelson: I'm going to tell everyone a little bit about your story, but I am going to have you tell it. But the reason why I wanted to start with this, I hadn't mentioned that this conversation has come up a lot, and you were recently with an ex who was a narcissist. Just a little backstory. Locally here, we have this amazing women's group that does different types of group meetups. One of them was about women who are either going through a divorce, who've been through a divorce, just bringing this divorce topic community together. I was asked to go because I've been through a divorce, and so just being there to support and show them the light that there is more on the other side once you can get through it. And a lot of the stories talked about their husbands being narcissists. And I was like, oh, my god, this is truly a thing. And then I have some close people in my life who are going through it as well. And this is your topic. This is your experience. This is what you've started your podcast around. So I think that this is a much needed conversation to have. Tell us a little bit about, there's so much to dive into, but a little bit about your backstory and how you got to where you are today.
Allyn Amerongen: I'm so excited to be here with you and talking about this. It is something that, unfortunately, it is affecting a lot of us. And so I will say that, I think that the term narcissism is spread around a lot. It's a very hot topic, and it's talked about in a lot of different ways. I'm sure that we'll get into that more. This is not something that I knew a ton about prior to this. And even in my relationship, I did not identify it. This is not something that I even identified until after the fact, and that also speaks to how good these people really are. Prior to this, I want to say my life was normal. My life was great, not perfect. No one's life is perfect, but kind of the hallmark of my life is wrestling a lot with chronic illnesses, and so that has been my main challenge since a very, very young age. And that was sparked by a sexual assault when I was younger, and I did not come to realize that until I was in my late 20's doing some work with EMDR therapy. If people are not familiar, that is some trauma based therapy. A work involving eye movements and helping to work through more traumatic memories and stuff like that.
And so I'd come to my therapist with this memory and just want to do work around it. And I totally recall this memory that was kind of a missing puzzle piece for me in a lot of ways, and we went from there. And so that really opened up a lot for me, and kind of helped in my journey of figuring things out. It's not a magic wand, but it made things make sense a little bit more. And so I think that's kind of my story. In a nutshell is wrestling with these issues, but always wanting to help people. And so I started chronic illness coaching about four years prior, and that was really going well. Coming on as a member of the care team and helping people throughout their journeys with that, navigating the trauma, and kind of helping them reach their goals and living with these illnesses throughout this. I think dating has always been a goal, also just kind of an issue when you're not feeling well. It's not high on your list. As I started to feel better, as I started to feel more and more of the puzzle pieces fell together, I felt like I had more capacity for that. And that kind of led to me dating more over the past few years, but more seriously. And last year or two, I met someone on an online dating app last year. It was just quick. It was fast, and we went. And that was this relationship. Unfortunately, it did not end well. But that was kind of how we got there.
Heather Nelson: So interesting with the dating app.
Allyn Amerongen: I know. I know.
Heather Nelson: I got divorced the first time, and I always say to people who, I have friends who are still dating, I've had success stories. I've had friends, cousins, have great relationships and stuff. But what a scary place to be. And not being able to really understand who somebody is, there's so many lies and things behind just their photos or their profile, and so it is a scary place. So hopefully, we don't totally knock the dating world. I feel like it's easier for people online to hide their identity.
Allyn Amerongen: Oh, well, you can be whatever you want to be, whoever you want to be. I think that that's, and take that with anything. With social media or with whatever, and with starting a business, it's kind of to have your confidence and step into this new persona and whatever. And I think in a lot of ways, it can be a good thing. And with dating, it can be somewhat dangerous. You just need to be smart. You need to weed through it. And I felt like I was doing that. I met a lot of great people. There are a lot of guys that I'm still in contact with, and they've become great friends. I've had some really great experiences, great memories and stuff. And so it's not to dissuade you, actually, you and I bonded. I used to be an event planner years and years ago before this, and this is how I warmed up to this because I had a lot of couples who were meeting through this and finding their person. I was like, okay, so it can't be all kinds of crap. And so there are good things that come from it. Unfortunately, I was not. And that just also speaks to him, the personality and stuff like that. I don't know the exact numbers, the percentages on how many are not good, or really not good. But yeah, they're not all bad.
Heather Nelson: So you meet this gentleman, not so gentlemen. Maybe you thought he was a gentleman. Talk about your experience of meeting him and where your relationship developed.
Allyn Amerongen: So we met, again, the apps. I don't understand. I say this in my show as well that I initially swiped no. and then he came back up the next day. And I don't understand the apps if that shouldn't happen, but it did. And he came back up. We matched, and it was just kind of what I call a lightning bolt of energy and of a match. And he was kind of all the things I hadn't necessarily found before in terms of, when you're on the apps, it feels like people are flaky, or very surface level, or hyper sexualized, or that they're not intentional and all these things. And I felt like I was getting the complete opposite with that. And my goal all along was, it sounds funny to say, but ideally, I would have wanted to meet my person and my partner on the apps. That was my goal. I wasn't just dating to date or to talk to people, and he fell in line with that, and we both had similar goals. It was easy, and it felt like this was my person. We talked a lot with a lot of open, honest conversation. It had a lot of ease to it. Had a lot of fun with it. He was very charming, charismatic. He reciprocated, which I appreciated. I felt like a lot of times, it was just me asking guys questions, or they're not engaged. But it gets old. This is not fun. And so it was fun, and it kept me interested. I thought that he was respectful and everything. And we were in different states at the time. I was leaving where he was located. I had been visiting for about a month.
So I was coming back home for a wedding, and we're in separate places. It was a long distance. And we talked and he said, would you want to come out here for the 4rth of July? And I said, sure. And we had a conversation. I said, is there anything I need to be worried about? Anything I need to be concerned about? I felt like he answered really quickly, and he said, nope. I had this one thing in my past, but it wasn't anything extremely serious. And we talked, and I felt like he was open and honest. I valued that. He always gave me a little bit more than what I asked for, which I valued. And we went from there. And very quickly, we were together on that trip and he said, you're my girlfriend. And I didn't really love that. It was told to me and not asked, and we had that conversation. But I also love that it wasn't a game that we are playing for however long, the back and forth, and I'm not going to commit and stuff like that. And so we were together. In a way, we went very quickly. I was integrated with his family. I think a few weeks later, I was on a big family trip. Few weeks after that, he came out with his family.
Heather Nelson: With his family?
Allyn Amerongen: Yeah.
Heather Nelson: Because you guys didn't live in the same state, and you guys met up, did you guys move in together? Or you just traveled a lot to see each other?
Allyn Amerongen: We traveled a ton. So that first time we were together, and we're on some family property of his. And he said, this is such a big deal that we're here, that my parents are allowing us to be here. And I had said, well, what did you tell them? And he said, I told them that you're my girlfriend. Well, that's the first time I'm hearing that. And we kind of talked about that. And I said, well, I have things that, if that's what we're doing, I want and need to happen in terms of how often we see each other. At that point in time, I was in Oregon, he was in Montana. We kind of agreed on every few weeks that we would try to make an effort. And so that worked out well for us. And so within, honestly, by the time I got home from that trip, he had already invited me to come out. It was less than a week later, I think, for a big family trip. They were going out of town, and I felt like it was fast. But also at the same time, when you're adults and everyone lives in different states, everyone's all over. And it was going to be mom and dad, and siblings, and aunts and uncles, and cousins. And so it was everyone. And family's a big value to me. It was a big value to him. And so I was kind of like, this is also one of my only chances aside from holidays to meet everyone. And I just said yes and went. And it was something that I was excited to do. They were doing some really fun stuff on that trip. So yeah, I moved very, very fast. But I also felt like, well, I'm gonna learn a lot about him. It's either gonna be good or bad.
Heather Nelson: When you're with his family, right?
Allyn Amerongen: Yeah, yeah.
Heather Nelson: How are you feeling with the relationship at the time? Were you like, oh, my god, this is so fast. Or oh, my god, I love him too. Did you feel like you were on the same page? Or were you a little hesitant because it was moving so fast?
Allyn Amerongen: I was totally in love, for sure. I can feel that this is moving fast. But I also felt like, who am I to say what the timeline is for anyone? In my mind, I always had the timeline of a relationship, and it was very drawn out a lot longer than that and what it would look like. And it did not look like this. But I also felt like my life, in a lot of ways, has felt unconventional. And I think that is a nod to the chronic illness stuff. And I also have this weird relationship with time that I talk about a lot where I value it, and I don't want to waste it. And that can be good or bad. I don't think it was necessarily bad, but I just feel like I trusted him. We can look back and say that I shouldn't, but I trusted him. I trusted myself with it, and I felt like I didn't want to waste time. I want to learn things. And if I'm going to learn, I'd rather learn it now than in a year or whatever. And in retrospect, I'm still glad that that happened because I got out of it quicker than being in it for years and years.
Heather Nelson: When you guys split up, you are married and don't have children, thankfully.
Allyn Amerongen: Correct, which we were planning on both. And so, yes, so luckily. I got out of it a lot better than I would have, should have, or could have, I guess. And then a lot of other women do. And so I'm very fortunate in that sense. That as much as it was terrible, there were a lot of other things that could have happened with that.
Heather Nelson: So you're going on all these family trips, you're meeting as family. Everything is great. Where did things start to kind of switch and you notice something was a little bit off?
Allyn Amerongen: That's a great question. Where do I begin with that one? I think the main thing, and it's hard now because I can look back and there were a lot of things that I didn't identify then that I can now go back and identify as abuse or manipulation that I just did not see at all then. I just knew that it maybe didn't feel great, and I didn't really love the behavior, or it felt kind of sticky, or it was going against my values or beliefs. But we were in love, and it was discussed, and then we kind of moved past it. And so one of those, or kind of examples of those would be, there was definitely some sexual coercion or boundaries that were crossed time and time again. But in hindsight or as it was happening, I felt like this was a new relationship. I brought it up to him, it would be addressed. And then it wouldn't happen for a few times, and then it would happen again later. Or it happened to a greater degree and something like that. And so again, I didn't fully recognize those things, and I also didn't have any real understanding about what that looked like in terms of being in a committed relationship and stuff like that.
Heather Nelson: I'm assuming that you're talking about him wanting to do things that you didn't feel comfortable doing. But you're like, this isn't like my jam. But it's hard because you're like, okay, I want to maybe experience it and see. But at the same time, you're like, I don't feel comfortable with this. And he kept pushing it.
Allyn Amerongen: Yes. That will definitely be in Episode 2. Episode 2 is a bit of a doozy coming out this week in particular.
Heather Nelson: I love how you like one, because I don't like, I mean, you just have your first one out. But I was like, you left it hanging. I was like, dang, I gotta listen next week.
Allyn Amerongen: Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
Heather Nelson: You don't have to go into the details.
Allyn Amerongen: So that was one example. And then I think the other thing that was perpetually an issue for us is that he had some issues with his ex that became more and more of an issue. And I say this in my show, obviously, when we matched and when we started talking, and when I went on a family trip and everything, he was 100% single. That relationship was in the past. That wasn't even a factor. We never talked about it. And then on that family trip, it was brought up. And ever since then, it was brought up more and more, and she became more and more involved in our lives. It became very apparent that she was not fully gone. And all the way to the very end, when it became apparent that she had been around the whole time. And so that was a rub, though I obviously didn't know that he kind of duped all of us with that. And so that was an issue, though, that we went back and forth on. Trusting your partner, and I never had a reason not to trust him. I think also his family, he was telling his family the same thing. He was telling my family the same thing. And I think trust was a big topic of this experience, trusting your partner, but also trusting yourself. And it got very blurry and hard, but there were a lot of instances that just became very difficult to navigate. And so there were little things throughout. But as a whole, I felt like I was very in love, and this was my person. There were hard things, but I was going to figure it out and move through it. We made a commitment to each other, and that just didn't end up happening.
Heather Nelson: Did you end up moving in together?
Allyn Amerongen: We were supposed to. I had a move date of the end of October, and I had moving supplies being delivered to me the weekend that we broke up. So very close. But no, we did not.
Heather Nelson: He had another person. Did he have a whole nother life? Did he have children? Did he have a whole nother life, it was totally living a crazy, crazy life? Or was he just not telling you the full truth about maybe some things that were hanging in the way?
Allyn Amerongen: Yeah, no. Definitely different lives. He wears many masks. No children that I am aware of. I don't believe he has any children, which is a blessing for everyone. He was with me, so that's one. And then he was also with the other woman, so that's two. And he had engagements with both of us. Plans to move into new houses with both of us. Plans to have children with both of us, all the same things. He told us all the same things. And at the same time, he was having whatever you want to call them extra relations with dozens and dozens of other women. So really, I don't even know how many lives we want to call that. He just presented in very different ways, a lot of different times. So he was living his one life with me, and my family knew about it. His family knew about it. We were all excited for this life. And then when I wasn't there, he would be at home with his other girlfriend and his family. And I thought she was gone.
Heather Nelson: I was gonna say, what did his family think about? They just thought it was you. They didn't know about anything else.
Allyn Amerongen: They knew about her from the past, and were not fond of her. But I thought that she was not a factor anymore so they were just as surprised as I was. And then a whole other category behind closed doors, what he's doing on his phone continuing on apps and all of that stuff. So there was a lot going on there.
Heather Nelson: So at what point did you discover this? Or how did you discover this?
Allyn Amerongen: Oh, well, I had no idea.
Heather Nelson: So after you guys broke up?
Allyn Amerongen: Yeah. I like to think I'm intelligent. I feel like I'm intelligent. I have been cheated on before, and so I'm very sensitive to that. We talked a lot about cheating when we first met. A lot of my questions were about all that stuff. And I think that's kind of even par for the course now is people, it's a digital age that you look people up. I looked him up, and he had not much going on social media wise, and I liked that. I was like, oh, this is nice. I enjoy that. And we talked about Snapchat. I said, I don't have a Snapchat. And I said, great. And so there wasn't a lot going on. We talked about all of that. When we became official, we both were deleting the dating apps. That was kind of the conversation. And then I was out of the house. I was making dinner. He was supposed to be coming over, and he texted me one night and said, the first night I was there and he said, this has all been moving really fast. I think I need some time to be by myself and figure things out. And I just dropped to the floor and just knew, I was like, it had just all been kind of odd. I just knew, and he was gone. We had each other's locations. His location was gone. I just knew that something's not right. And I was talking to his sister, we were super close. And she said, there's no way he would do this. And I said, your brother just broke up with me. She said, there's absolutely no way. He's so in love with you.
And I called him, and I heard an answer. I texted him and said, I'm sorry I don't understand. Is this a breakup? And he said, I think that's for the best right now. And I went into complete shock. And everyone was kind of trying to figure out what was happening. His sister was really rallying behind me. I just couldn't even function. The next day, I ended up getting a Facebook message of requests, and then it was deleted. But it was from the woman who I knew was his ex. I knew her name. I had never talked to her, and I just sent back a question mark because I was just so tired. I was like, everyone's saying so many different things. I'm so tired of hearing all these different things. And I sent that back, and she replied right away. She said, hi Allyn, I'm his girlfriend of however long, and I found your letter in his truck. He told me he broke up with you for me, and he's been cheating on both of us with all these other women. And she just sent me all these screenshots, and you can't as much as you don't believe it. All of the screenshots of everything. It's not just her, but it's other women. They're on time stamps on weekends when maybe I wouldn't hear from him as much, or when they filled in the gaps. And so she said, he's right here if you want to talk to him. And I hadn't talked to him and I called, and they were at home together.
She put the phone up to him, and he got really volatile. She said, yep, that's how he talks to me. And I couldn't even form words. I was just sobbing. And beside myself I said, I'm so sorry. I said, I had no idea that you guys were together. I'm so sorry that I switched into being the other woman. I felt so bad. And she goes, yeah, he's been doing this to both of us. There's all these other women. And she had been on a Facebook group and just kind of collecting information for a while about him. He was all over. He traveled for work. He was all over the state and surrounding states being with other women, I guess. While he was gone and I went on and got on the group, and you can't deny, I mean, it's all over. He was all over. She and I talked at length for a little bit, and our stories were just complete puzzle pieces to each other. Were you together this time? And I'd say, yeah. And we matched up. I guess it provided a little bit of comfort to both of us in that sense. And that's kind of how I found out, but I didn't know. I was always kind of that girlfriend that, if I had an issue, I'd bring it up to him. Can I see your phone? Can I go through your phone? I always trusted him in that sense. And apparently, that was wrong. Apparently, I should have been doing phone checks on the guy. But I don't want to be in a relationship where I have to do phone checks on you. And yeah, and here's how it turned out.
Heather Nelson: Is she still with him?
Allyn Amerongen: I believe so.
Heather Nelson: So how long were you guys together? Like your whole span of relationship.
Allyn Amerongen: It was from June to October.
Heather Nelson: You fell fast. Besides the sexual weirdness that happened, were there any other things that he did that made you kind of a red flag, or made you feel uncomfortable?
Allyn Amerongen: It's hard because it's the person that you love. I say this in my show time and time again that his superpower walks the line extremely close. I think a lot of women can relate to the fact that we're strong, and we always say whatever teeters over. It's like what it looks like on TV or something, then I'd be gone in a heartbeat. And I felt that to my core. My story never looked like that. It never looked like an episode like the movies or anything, but he was very good at being very coercive in subtle ways, whittling me down over time in a lot of ways that I did not understand, and slowly devaluing me. That's really what we see. And kind of in the psychological abuse pattern is these acts of abuse, or causing pain, or inflicting confusion and stuff. And then you come back around and you provide love, or affection, or compliments, or something like that. And that really was, we are stuck in this cycle, and that started super early. I was love bombed really fast, and then we're together, and it's great. And then very early on in our intimate relationship, these things started happening that I wasn't comfortable with that escalated into. Biting during sex, that escalated into biting when we were not having sex. So now, we have bruises. We're having these conversations that we shouldn't be having. That's not love for your partner, you're hurting your partner. But it wasn't every time. And then these things would be addressed, and then they'd happen again.
And also, the devaluing of even communication and talking, and then not talking. He would go silent, and it would go to like, I love you. You're my soulmate. I can't wait to be a parent with you, and all these things. It was just this cycle, and that really is tough because you don't see it at the moment. And I was just, I love him, and I just want us to be good. And what you see in people like him is that they're very conscientious about who they pick. I'm not a fighter, I'm not argumentative by nature. I have a tendency of being a people pleaser, which I am working on. But a lot of times, I just want to move past it. I don't want to go toe to toe. I'll bring something up, and I will bring things up time and time again. But it was like, hey, can we work on this? Not like, I want to go toe to toe with you. And that really worked, I believe, to his advantage. And he knew that, because I was never going to outright fight him on things and escalate things. We weren't going to have a blowout argument. And so looking back on our relationship, we had one, I don't even want to say argument. I got up and ended up walking away. But we never had fights. We never really raised our voices at each other. It was all pretty calm. But there are just these acts that happen over time to where you suddenly aren't yourself. I wasn't dressing the same. He would make comments about what I was wearing, and I don't really like that. Would you want to wear something different? And slowly over time, you just change who you are for that person.
Heather Nelson: Talk to us a little bit about some of the characteristics, obviously, you have a little bit. But if somebody isn't familiar with this type of behavior, some of the characteristics that you've witnessed or ones that you've heard now that you've opened this like Pandora box, I'm sure you've been hearing all kinds of crazy stories. But talk through some of the behaviors or things that somebody might who might be in a relationship like this not know that they could kind of like, hmm, maybe that's me.
Allyn Amerongen: There's a lot of interesting stuff on here. I will refer people to Dr. Nadine Macaluso. She's a guest expert on my show. She was married to the Wolf of Wall Street, and she was played by Margot Robbie in that film with Leonardo DiCaprio, and she is now an expert on trauma bonds and helping women overcome these things. And she came on my show and was super helpful. But her website has a lot of awesome quizzes and just great things. But one thing that she has on there that has been really helpful for me is she talks about the dark triad, so kind of starting there before you even get into narcissism. So it refers to how you look at personality traits and it's a spectrum. All these things are kind of a spectrum. So the first would be narcissism, and we'll get into that one. The second would be, I always have to practice on saying this machiavellianism. I know it sounds very fancy. And third would be psychopathy. And then the fourth that they just have in there is sadism. And so that really is obviously the extreme that would be driving pleasure from inflicting pain or suffering on others. But going into narcissism, it really is kind of an entitlement or dominance over people, and a lack of empathy, a lack of remorse. There's different versions of it, grandiose or covert. There's all different ways to get into it, but you will tend to see the inflated sense of their own importance. They believe that they tend to be more superior than others. I know with my ex, he definitely said that, or he called people losers all the time which drove me insane. It was kind of like a loser. It's not like you're saying a bad word or cussing someone out, but I was like, you can't say that. That's not nice.
Heather Nelson: And also, what makes you think that you're better than them?
Allyn Amerongen: I say that because you think these big things, but these little things, you look back and you're like, oh, my gosh. It's these things that actually add up over time. So we kind of have a lack of empathy. They might identify your feelings or something, but they really struggle to maybe recognize or even care about them. They tend to have a need for admiration. They crave excessive attention from others to reinforce their self image. I saw that a lot. We ended up going to one of his friends' weddings, and that was a very interesting experience where it was kind of flipped. It was about him, and he felt like his friend wasn't there for him. He was sad that he wasn't at the wedding. And these people suck, and it was this whole sob story. So that's kind of needing that attention, their sense of entitlement. They have manipulative behavior. And again, that can look very, very subtle. The gaslighting, the line, guilt tripping to control others or their self image. So that's super important to know that it's never just outright forceful manipulation, but if it makes you question it. Then a lot of times, that probably is leading into one of those avenues, exploitation of others, preoccupation of fantasies.
And so really, they won't ever say it. But they live in a fantasy world about power, or brilliance, or ideas, or love. Always talked about houses or what we're buying, or these things that lends itself to the future, faking that they can become involved in. Talking about future things to keep you engaged. Or thinking about something that's not the present, kind of always in this fantasy world drumming that up for you, that arrogance and superiority that we talked about. They do have a fragile self esteem, which is interesting because they don't show it. But narcissism is actually very shame based, and so they're actually driving all this from an outward confidence. They have a very fragile self esteem. They're not gonna outright say that, but you might over time. I think if you've been with someone for a long time, you might notice that. So those are the main things that I would say to look for. I think there's a lot that goes into all those. And it looks different for people. There's a huge spectrum of things, but those tend to be the main things in terms of narcissism. Then as that escalates into the dark triad, then you get into more and more characteristics that if you're not having remorse for what you're doing and stuff like that, then you escalate into other personality disorders. But really, it's that lack of empathy in what they're doing, and how they interact with their loved ones and the people around them.
Heather Nelson: I know of some of these just off the top of people that I'm like, oh, well, that makes sense. That's after you had that conversation with ex, he's with her. That was your last interaction with him. Or did you ever see him again? Or did he ever beg you to stay with him? What was that transition like?
Allyn Amerongen: He called me that night because I had been talking to his other partner. I don't even know how to phrase that. I don't know.
Heather Nelson: Don't know what the title was.
Allyn Amerongen: Don't know what it was, I don't know what it is. I don't know how to correct that. And so I was talking to her, and he called me and said, I'd like to see you face to face. And it was the first time I had heard from him since he broke up with me the day before. And I said, I don't know what you could possibly want to talk about. At that point, it was like a nail in the coffin for me. There's no walking back from those things. And he just said, I'd like to see you. And I know that his family had been urging him to see me face to face, and they didn't know about all this at the time. And so I said, fine. And I saw him face to face. He came over, and he couldn't look me in the eye. We sat down and I said, is this true that you were cheating on me with her? And he said, yes. And I said, okay. You were cheating on both of us with other women? And he said, yes. And I said, okay. He got up and did his alligator tears. He goes to get a tissue and he said, you didn't deserve this. And I said, I know I didn't deserve this. You've destroyed two families, and I don't even know what the other damage is with the other women. But you've wrecked my family and yours. Because at that point, I was having to deal with my family. I had a good relationship with his family, and so telling his parents and everything that was going on. And he said, I know. And I said, okay, I don't know what else there is to talk about. And he got up and left. and that was the last time I ever saw him. He texted me the next morning and he said, I'm so sorry that you were brought into this. It really hurts me that you're choosing to believe all these things about me, but I also understand because I lied to you. He said, I have a lot of love for you. I love you so much, but it's hurting that you are choosing to believe these things. And I just said, I thought you read it, and you're like--
Heather Nelson: At some point, he could see that. He's like, can I take you back? Like, I'm so sorry. And it's like that circle again if it's gonna be okay, and I'm sorry.
Allyn Amerongen: Yeah. And I think the struggle with this, and something that I've had a really hard time with, is that I would love nothing more than to just rip him to shreds. But I realized from that very first time, that weekend that he is sick and on top of some other issues he has going on. Then with the personality disorders that I believe he has. There's no fixing it, and I can't fix it. Me saying things is not doing anything. And so there's no point. And so I said, you took my trust, you took my love. You took my plans and excitement for our future. And you took us planning children. We had names for our children, and you just knowingly wrecked it all. And at what cost? And I said, I would love to say a lot of things right now, but I'm not going to say because it doesn't matter. You're not worth it. I said, I pray that you will get help, and I don't want anything else to do with you. And that was the last time I heard from him. I reached out a few times trying to get some things back from him, but I never heard back. And yeah, I have not. We haven't had any contact, which is definitely--
Heather Nelson: That was a lot for you to come off of. Any breakup is hard. I'm assuming that this process of getting over him and moving on from that was not easy, and it's probably still not even complete. But at what point during your grieving and experiencing this that you're like, you know what? I need to take my experience and inspire others who might be going through it with the podcast and things like that, and leaning into it. Where did that trigger for you?
Allyn Amerongen: I knew super early that I wanted to do something. I had no capacity to think. I came home and it was a blessing that I made at home. That I made it on my flights and got home. I was just a breathing human because that was a struggle for me, and we had a lot of other stuff going on. We had a few family losses within those few months, and there was a lot going on personally as well. And so I guess even more personally, I don't know how much more personally you can get. We had a lot going on in our family, and so I knew that I wanted to do something I had no capacity to because I couldn't even get through. Getting through a day was a challenge. My mental health was just extremely bad. You come out of something like this, and it's a breakup. But it's more than a breakup, because it's complete and utter betrayal of everything. I had this future planned. And not only do I not trust others, but I don't trust myself. It just shattered my whole idea of life in a lot of ways. That sounds so dramatic, but I know that if you've been through it, you'll understand. And I wanted to help people. I knew that I wasn't alone.
I also think that I saw the ripple effect of how many other women he had affected. And I was like, I know I'm not alone, but there's so many things that run through your mind, how can I do this? How can I talk about this? And I sat on it for a long time. I had to get myself right. And someone who's on my show, Dr. Chris. He helped me a lot. He assisted me with ketamine therapy, but he told me one time, whatever you want to do, just do it clean. And that impacted me a lot, and has always stuck with me. And what he meant by that was just whatever you want to do, go and do it. But do it not from a place of anger or being malicious. You do it from your own power and wanting to help people do it from a clean spirit. I don't think I ever had a malicious intent. I think I had a really sad intent, and I think that this might have been a lot different if I did it earlier. I don't even think that I would have been able to get through it honestly. But yeah, I had to sit and wait, and it took a long time to even figure out what it would be, what it would look like and stuff. So you have to give it that time. And even people have said, oh, it's really fast. And everyone's going to have their opinions of fast, slow or whatever. And for a while, I was like, maybe I should just do a really quick TikTok series. There's all these different things that you see people do or other people, and I just had to stick with what felt right and best for me. And it has turned out to be this. I love it. Thank you.
Heather Nelson: I think it's great. And I think, again, like I've told you, so many things have sparked from it. And I think even just having the conversation around it and holding space for it gives women an opportunity to support each other, and help each other, and get through that together. I know your breakup was like, I don't want to say easy. But like, he was like, okay, it's done and it's done. But do you have any advice for a woman who feels really stuck. If she tries to leave, it's going to be this emotional. You can't live without me. All the things that they will hinder them from leaving. Is there any advice or anything that you've learned that you could report out to these?
Allyn Amerongen: Yeah, yeah. I think that in a lot of ways, I was fortunate. I get that comment from people sometimes in there, they say, you're lucky that it was just over. And that's something that I have wrestled a lot. And I will say that there's no good way to end something that you thought would be forever. Yes, that's great that it didn't go on and drag out. But at the same time, I spent a lot of time in such a warped way because you're breaking an addiction to this person. I spent a lot of time crying over the fact, feeling like I know this is good. But at the same time, feeling like he didn't choose me. Well, I didn't even want him to choose me, but he didn't even choose me. I wrestled with that so much, and I had to pray on that for a long time. I feel that when he didn't choose me, God chose me. And that's my personal belief. I feel like I was chosen, and that's how I'm really trying to use this story. There's a lot of ways to look at it, and that's kind of how I've looked at mine. If you're in it for a long time or it's dragging out, I just know that there's a different story being written for you, and it's on the other side of really brave and tough decisions. And I know it sounds extremely cliche, and I hate myself for saying it. But nothing is going to change unless you make a change. They will not do it, it has to come from you. And you can look at my story and say, well, he made the change. And I will say that he did it because he was forced into it, because she found a letter of mine and had him do it. He wouldn't have done it on his own.
Don't look at my story and think differently. They keep their supply, and it feeds ego. It feeds all these things, entitlement, fantasies, superiority, self esteem and all these things. And so they want to keep you around as long as possible, even if it is rocky or whatever. And so they think very differently than we think. And so it's not going to change until you make a change. And even once you make a change, it's not going to feel good. There's no way. In any world, it feels good. But really, looking at what you want your life to be. And if you have kids, what do you want their lives to be? And for me, I don't have kids right now. That's a goal of mine. But for me, it's my nieces. They have always been my WHY. They were with me enough through this. And there were some times that they saw me upset or crying over things that happened. And even just that little tiny bit of them saying, why are you upset? That's too much, and that's not something they shouldn't see. That is my belief. I believe in ending the cycle for them, but it takes a change of behavior. Or else, it will keep going and running through generations. And so I believe that you have the strength. I believe that you have the courage to be the one to step up and change that. I know how hard it is, but taking any form of action to do that, and knowing that you are supported in that, I've learned that throughout my story too that there are far more resources than you even think or know. I wasn't even aware of these things.
Just even in your circle or community, there are so many people willing and able to help you through this. And so I think just really becoming a tune to that. But looking at the big picture more than anything and deciding to make that change and sticking with it. You just have to know without a doubt that it will be hard, and that you will try to be sucked in and all of that. And I forget off the top of my head the statistics on how many times it takes to officially leave, but it's not one, it's not two, it's not three. I know it's more than that, but it's a lot. So know those things, be prepared, and have your WHY. You have to have to know why you're doing it. And just stick with that and follow that.
Heather Nelson: I love that. It's such a great message. I think it's a great message in general for anything. I believe in that as well. But I think that's a great perspective that somebody should take whether they're leaving, whoever they're leaving.
Allyn Amerongen: I know.
Heather Nelson: As you're describing them, all these people like bing, bing. Oh, that makes sense.
Allyn Amerongen: I know. It's totally a hot word in the last few years. I think that's been something I try to not use too much. I can't diagnose him or anyone. I'm not a therapist. I've even talked to my therapist at length. I said, if I brought him in here, could you diagnose him? And she said, a lot of times, they're so good that even going to therapy with your partner who you feel like may have these issues is not encouraged because it could lead to further issues, or gaslighting, or manipulation and stuff like that. And so it's really fascinating what that looks like. It is hard to get a formal diagnosis or whatever. And it's not like they're wanting to get that diagnosis for themselves or anything. It's just something to be aware of. And I think that even if you're feeling that you don't, you can go when you want to go. You deserve something that's more than that. You're worth more than that. So yeah, I was in a relationship. I never identified the term. I never identified that afterwards. I was like, oh, my gosh, it makes so much sense. Now I speak to that because it makes sense, and people identify with it. I do believe that's the truth in my story, but it's also just a toxic relationship. I think a lot of people go through that as well. We can all relate to something bad with that too.
Heather Nelson: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for what you're talking about. Being strong and brave to even talk about it, and then even taking an extra step to support people. And so I love what you're doing. I'm your cheerleader. I will definitely put all your stuff in the show notes for everyone to follow you. When are your episodes released? Tuesdays?
Allyn Amerongen: Every Tuesday.
Heather Nelson: We're listening tomorrow. The way you tell the story is really cool.
Allyn Amerongen: Thank you. We're figuring it out as we go, but it's been good. It's been a good project, so I appreciate the feedback.
Heather Nelson: Absolutely. Thank you for being here, and I'm so glad we connected.
Allyn Amerongen: Thank you. You too. I appreciate it.